They have absolutely NO idea how phony it sounds to someone outside the Amen Chorus. Yet at the same time he treats his own children with total disregard for their safety, as though their lives had no value. Sprouls alcoholism and the fact hes a jerk are two separate issues. This past Saturday, June 17, my daughter was married. Getting a DUI at St. Peter Presbyterian Church was no big deal and driving on a suspended license was also no big deal. Some people, for example, may be convinced that consuming alcohol is against Gods law. Vesta Freese, age 89 of Longmont, CO, formerly of Lake View, IA, passed away on Monday, November 18, 2019, in Longmont, CO. Vesta Ann Keiser was born on August 19, 1930, in Clinton Township, Sac City, IA, to parents Austin and Iva (Luft) Keiser. Yes, they can be a big help but only if the person is dead serious about sobriety. Youre too quick to take offense because youre reading things that havent even been said. She may not have much say over what he does, especially anything involving his children. Thanks, Leslie, for your concern. And some people have been at this for years, apparently, and have developed precision skills in defense of their agenda. and putting things into strong ideas with smooth words along with the willingness to step in and do that from time to time. Handling substance abusers in the church requires a multi-pronged approach, best done on the advice of experts in substance abuse who can properly direct the churchs leaders in how to handle it. I do think that some forms of patriarchy (as lived by RC Sproul Jr, Doug Wilson, as examples) can encourage conditions that are fertile for alcoholism to develop. I got there at about 9:30. Im asking, since you advocate for alcoholics to get non-church treatment AND to be allowed to sit in a pew every week. However, that is how I see that particular passage: social danger to others, or more than looks and testimony. I wont go into too much what I was told when I moved back in by my church family, abandoning God, letting the church down, not having the mind of Christ, succumbing to the world, loving my family more than loving God etc. Sproul 2s drinking. I am not the one who is saying how people should get people into treatment programs. We do not support this book or his return to public ministry.. Wev had varied opinions on how to handle addictions in the church on this thread. Clearly you have never experienced the total helplessness and pain of having an alcoholic loved one. So Ill start to believe that RC is repentant when he contacts me personally to confess and repent of all the damage he caused me and my family. Instead he said the charges against his son were fraudulent which meant he was basically accusing everyone of being liars. Gossip and Condemnation of others is no less sinful than is murder. That is an important element here. The Bible says that those who profess to be brothers in Christ and are drunkards need to be expelled from the church. Were all (finally) in agreement that the man needs treatment. People dont have to reinvent the wheel to find help. Deb, your photos were the first thing I saw. He's even raised a lot of money for various pro-life causes. R C Sproul Junior needs to be put out of the church and that needs to be very publicly done because he has been so significant at Ligonier. Barbara Roberts wrote: Can you imagine for one second the shame and embarrassment of having everyone know that your mom is a fall down drunk? You are correct. Many of us have suffered tragedies. The only people who are likely to be able to pick up on it are other alkies. Okrapod is a doctor and I work in mental health. and me: Having said that, I suggest you read the verses I gave (1 Cor 5:11-13). telling me that I cant comment to people who are expecting replies from me isnt ok. (Besides if it were my ex-pastor, and he was working with a sponsor in a 12-step program, my name would eventually make it to the 9th Step list of the people he had harmed and had to make amends to!). What a wonderful ministry that you have had! Im talking about the loss of time with real friends who are still my friends. They do recommend tough love including setting boundaries as you also said you support. I believe some people are born with a tendency towards addictive behavior and that is why I believe in psychiatric counseling for these tendencies. When people are discussing or pointing this out many people begin to think they are the only seeing these problems when multiple people have these same views. It just sounds creepy to me. Is this text taught or preached in churches? I saw it as narrowly focused on RC Sproul, Jr. This is beyond shocking. I am grateful that R.C. You could maybe argue he could be permitted to be a Pew Potato, but I dont think he should be allowed to remain a preacher. Sproul was an advocate of Calvinism in his many print, audio, and video publications, and advocated the Thomistic (classical) approaches to Christian apologetics, less common among Reformed apologists, most of whom prefer presuppositionalism. Max often reminds us that most Baptist churchgoers dont pay much attention to theology. Velour wrote: But -I think you are over-selling non-church treatment. He gave several steps to be taken in dealing with a professed believer who is living a life of rebellion against God. Sr. cant stop Jr. from spending his money on alcohol. Velour, I said haha about the typo which the authors of this post had inadvertently made in the text of their post. He is not a strong man, apparently. And he doesnt strike me as a would-be follower, so hed have to start another church and lead it in a sober way, and with his record of installing yes-men to advise him in his former churches, the outlook just does not seem terribly optimistic, to be realistic. In my comments, in case you missed them, I also talked about the importance of churches seeking professional advice for dealing with pastors (or other members) who have substance abuse problems. No, apparently all were agreement from the very beginning. My wife walked this bumpy road with me and patiently ignored me when I reacted out of hurt. Some people seem to have agendas and sometimes peoples meanings get distorted and inferences get made all in the service of some apparent agenda. More setting up for But Everybodys Doing It!? You have taken this quote out of context . When youre a non-drinker at social functions, the drinkers noticed. I sure hope that church members or family members uncover the rest of the sins that have been covered up at St. Peter. He is damaging indeed, and the fruits are showing. As others have pointed out rather than enable RC2, RC should have insisted no special treatment be given to RC2 and thus forced RC2 to hit rock bottom. Its almost as if their sinful exploits give them more street cred, and justify their continued sin. Changed lives. Why? I know people, who are close to me, involved with St. Peters I love and miss dearly. Never reconciled with some of his adult children, became semi reclusive. I have been talking about how the church should react in the face of this sort of egregious behavior. Having said that, I suggest you read the verses I gave (1 Cor 5:11-13). To an Alky, the Constitutional Right to My Next Drink cannot be infringed in any way. Addiction, rather than disease, is a better way to characterize alcoholism IMO. He died on December 14, 2017 in Altamonte Springs, Florida, USA. @ Max: I am in Silicon Valley, as you know, so I know all of the groups and organizations that you have mentioned. If one has not read the Adult children of alcoholic books, dont consider yourself educated on this matter. Sproul, Jr. has a new book coming out, published by Ichthus Publications (what were they thinking???). I think that is all what she was getting at, her basic point. When he was stopped, the officer observed that Sproul needed support to walk, he swayed, mumbled and had a moderate smell of alcohol on his breath. Sounds like needs a blood transfusion! (let alone applied in practice?). Jr. sounds like hes running a cult, not a Presbyterian Church. It is remarkable how LITTLE one can do for an addict if the addict doesnt want help. He might have even qualified to have his criminal record expunged. God was with my parents & gracious to them in very different ways. I just see the hope really being in getting people like him into treatment, and getting treatment/support for their family members. Her main mistake, perhaps, was not adding more context to indicate that the kicking out was not due *only* to the alcoholism. Miracles happen. He went to the hospital the next day, he did not want to go that evening but finally, my mother insisted. She was in the hospital for several months after the accident. I wonder if they are applying this to all, or only to people who fill certain roles? . Im impressed to now discover that there are multiple Celebrate Recovery groups in the Ft. Wayne area: http://www.celebraterecoveryfortwayne.com/ True. Our secretary had to make arrangements (many times) to have him picked up from a bar / tavern because of his condition due to drinking. So whether or not the church eventually deals with his behavior, his children have a good chance of becoming atheists anyhow. I just see the hope really being in getting people like him into treatment, and getting treatment/support for their family members. Daisy, What a traumatic experience for a young teen. Remember too, that Paul also confronts the church when they do not welcome the repentant brother back. Hundreds of people showed up. 511 0 obj <> endobj 533 0 obj <>/Filter/FlateDecode/ID[<9723A9CD413C4B2C92544032644E85B0>]/Index[511 35]/Info 510 0 R/Length 100/Prev 987638/Root 512 0 R/Size 546/Type/XRef/W[1 2 1]>>stream By creating a false correlation you just gave him the excuse he needs, and youre not the only one here who keeps doing it. I know you have suffered from people in your family with this disease, and there is controversy about responsibility versus the helplessness of illness; Effecting change is a responsibility every person has no matter their role; whether victim, family member of a substance abuser or the one directly responsible. No one knows. That Frankenstein line of forehead stitches did it heal up? if you can remember way back some time ago, a person behaved the same way but under a different name than H.A. I find that the best part of blogging. Thats a very hard life, to put it mildly. wrote: Find an obituary, get service details, leave condolence messages or send flowers or gifts in memory of a loved one. Says that even now, when he sees a half-full glass of wine or beer left over at a restaurant, he has to fight down the urge to run over, grab the glass, and chug the remainder.). Velour wrote: . Biblical church discipline is not Dark Ages nor cruel. I am not the one who is talking about diagnosis or treatment variables. This is precisely where most churches will fall flat on their faces with alkies. I have explained myself and you have explained yourself. I thought perhaps that JA and Barbara were referring to the entirety of RC Jrs choices and damage inflicted from his lofty position as spiritual authority, even though from the context that wasnt obvious. May we all be "wounded healers" who do no harm. After looking at the church website, I could find no indication that it was a Foursquare church; however, I did find this which has the same Pine Hills Church listed and has Foursquare shown at the top of the site. You appear to be equating church discipline with spiritual abuse. Think about grace being the last act in the story, which I think it may be for us all. And the steam burns from the radiator explosion on the picture they look like first-degree burns. It is my prayer that others whove been hurt find assurance in Gods peace. Under what circumstances did you become aware of alcohol abuse in these people-that might be a tip off. He needs to be in an in-patient treatment program. and me: Believe me, I am all for treatment, and I am extremely frustrated that there seems to be no way to help someone who doesnt want treatment, whether they deny they have a problem, or they admit that they have a problem but they dont want treatment anyway. 30-90 day inpatient treatment is cost prohibitive for a lot of people, even if they wanted to go. RC2 started his own brand of churches after he was defrocked by his fathers group. 3. Today children would be removed from such an environment, but in the deep deep South 60 years ago this was not the case. She just trotted out a few scripture verses as though that will take care of everything. Barbara trotted out the classic evangelical line that people with these problems arent real Christians, arent bearing fruit, etc. took exception to what I said and said I created a false correlation. The idea of just kicking someone to the curb and not getting them help (and help for their family) is not the Christian thing to do, in my opinion. I wasnt raised with the concept that your church keeps tabs on what youre up to. We ran our group from 1985-2002. That is a whole different level of bad behavior. I wouldnt wish spiritual abuse on my worst enemy either. How would permitting Sproul Jr. to remain a pastor, or in regular attendance at any church, treat his alcoholism, or treat or correct his tendency to visit cheating sites, or to bully other people? I guess human pain all has to go somewhere until it ends up at the Cross where it can be laid down so it cannot hurt anyone else. agreed: if a person does not want to stop drinking, they cant be forced; but if the person gets into enough trouble (ie. The story that Friend posted about the love, care, concern, and inclusion that their church and clergy gave to a woman alcoholic member is a testament to the Gospel at work. I have been trying to put many old demons to rest and cancel out some of those old tapes that keep repeating. But they also need bona fide help from people who know how to deliver it and are trained in it. But some of us here also have not just experience with alkies in general. It seems to me that Velours initial comments were based on her own painful experience of being pushed out when she needed to be embraced instead. I think Ive read that some people have linked drug and alcohol additions to life situations/trauma/etc and said once that moment in their life passed they were able to drop the drugs and/or alcohol with little problem. Ive seen the terrible impacts of alcohol abuse in my family, beginning with just a beer at the picnic to full-fledged alcoholism with many consequences. Sproul Jr. 16 A Theologian from the Burgh Stephen J. Nichols 28 A Shepherd of God's People Burk Parsons 32 A Friend and Father in the Faith Sinclair B. Ferguson 38 Faithful to the End W. 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