how to calculate spring constant of rubber band

Is Youngs modulus the same as modulus of elasticity? The Youngs modulus of elasticity of Rubber is. The line-of-best-fit need not pass through any of the data points. Fortunately, the basic technique of applying the definition of work that we employed for an ideal spring also works for elastic materials in general. Objects of given weight (granola bars, packaged foods, etc.) Our goal is to make science relevant and fun for everyone. Shoot at least four more rubber bands in the same way, stretching them back to 10 cm on the ruler each time. Therefor the total energy stored in all four springs is 250 J * 4 springs = 1000 J total. Calculate the standard deviation of the length. Does increasing the number of stretched elastic bands increase the total elastic potential energy? The spring constant can be calculated using the following formula: k = -F/x, where k is the spring constant. Compare rubber band action with spring action. Rubber is a member of a larger class of materials called elastomers and it is difficult to overestimate their economic and . The strain is the change in the length of the solid. I'm fairly new to this topic, but from past experience of doing this in 3rd grade, we used to stretch a rubber band really quickly, then put it to our upper lip (while it was still stretched.). Shoot more rubber bands in the same way, except stretch them back to 15 cm, 20 cm, 25 cm or 30 cm. You can also use it as a spring constant calculator if you already know the force. the question is number 6 under Data Analysis. Try this simple exercise - if the force is equal to 60N60\ \mathrm{N}60N, and the length of the spring decreased from 15cm15\ \mathrm{cm}15cm to 10cm10\ \mathrm{cm}10cm, what is the spring constant? Calculate the energy. Elastic potential energy (measured in the unit joules) is equal to multiplied by the stretch length ("x") squared, multiplied by the spring constant "k." The spring constant is different for every rubber band, but can be figured out (see "Welcome to the Guide to Shooting Rubber Bands" below). Write these distances under a heading for their stretch length (for example, "20 cm"). Write these distances down under the heading "10 cm." You can use Hooke's law calculator to find the spring constant, too. Dealing with hard questions during a software developer interview. Stretch it by a distance x with your hands. Easiest way to remove 3/16" drive rivets from a lower screen door hinge? (3) k = Y A L 0 The main reason for the difference is that you are deforming the rubber band more than the spring. However, if you know the elastic potential energy and the displacement, you can calculate it using: In any case youll end up with a value with units of N/m. Expert Answer. But, if you continue to apply the force beyond the elastic limit, the spring with not return to its original pre-stretched state and will be permanently damaged. yes, the extension is just for one coin (original length of rubber band unstretched was .200 m, then it stretched to .203 m). A fun physics problem from Science Buddies, Key concepts Let's consider the spring constant to be -40 N/m. After launching five rubber bands at a given stretch length, measure the distances from your line to the circles. What was the relationship between the stretch length and the launch distance? Homework-like questions should ask about a specific physics concept and show some effort to work through the problem. It always has a positive value. Connect and share knowledge within a single location that is structured and easy to search. Take a rubber band. where $k_2=2k_1$ is the spring constant of the two bands. This is equal to one half the mass (of the rubber band) multiplied by its velocity (in meters per second) squared. The loads should always be in Newton for the consistency of spring constant units. JavaScript is disabled. The concept of elastic potential energy, introduced alongside the spring constant earlier in the article, is very useful if you want to learn to calculate k using other data. Your helper can stand a few meters in front of you, but off to the side, not directly in the line of fire! The formula to calculate the applied force in Hooke's law is: We then put the thumbtack in the wall and hung the rubber band on it 3. Calculate the spring constant. Using these equations, you can calculate the velocity of the rubber band right when it is released, and find that the velocity has a linear relationship with the stretch length. Physics To calculate the force constant, we need to find the frequency of vibration and the mass of the object. 3. Polymers are long chains of carbon atoms, and like any long chains, they get all tangled up if you let them. This is known as Hooke's law and commonly written: \boxed {F=-kx} F = kx. Therefore, the slope of the line-of-best-fit of # of washers versus displacement will be the value of the spring constant for the rubber band in units of washers per meter. The law, while very useful in many elastic materials, called linear elastic or Hookean materials, doesnt apply to every situation and is technically an approximation. The frequency of vibration is 2.0Hz. The change in length must be noted. Did you see a linear relationship between the launch distance and stretch length when you graphed your data? I am trying to calculate the stored energy of the rubber band. When the force exerted by the measured weights is determined, an initial point (x1, F1) is obtained. Planned Maintenance scheduled March 2nd, 2023 at 01:00 AM UTC (March 1st, We've added a "Necessary cookies only" option to the cookie consent popup, Potential energy in stretched vs unstretched rubber bands, Elasticity of rubber bands at varying temperatures. Its inclination depends on the constant of proportion, referred to as the spring constant. But if we stretch the band slowly it might follow Hooke's law and have spring-constant value. Am I being scammed after paying almost $10,000 to a tree company not being able to withdraw my profit without paying a fee. deformation) by 0.15 m. Calculate the spring constant. That's the only way I can get your value, which is a no-no. The larger the spring constant, the stiffer the spring and the more difficult it is to stretch. Does With(NoLock) help with query performance? This proportionality constant is called the spring constant and is represented by the symbol k (in units of N/m). Elasticity of the rubber band is defined as. At the outside place you picked, stand where there is lots of clearance in front of you. Enter your data in the data table. Since the slope of any line on a graph has units of the vertical axis divided by the horizontal axis (slope is defined as a ratio of the change in the vertical axis divided by the change in the horizontal axis), the slope of the line-of-best fit tells you the # of washers per meter of displacement for the rubber band. The energy stored in a spring depends on both the distance that it is. When the rubber band is released, the potential energy is quickly converted to kinetic (motion) energy. The mass of the object is 1OOg. There are actually two different kinds of energy: potential energy, which is stored energy, and kinetic energy, which is energy in motion. Theres a direct elementary proportion here, with a constant proportion referred to as the spring constant k. Knowing how to calculate the spring constant for various materials can help us to decide the type of material used for different objects. (Dependent Variable) Temperature is defined as the temperature of the water that the rubber band is submerged in (Independent Variable). Rubber elasticity refers to a property of crosslinked rubber: it can be stretched by up to a factor of 10 from its original length and, when released, returns very nearly to its original length. Hookes law is a fondamental rule of thumb applied on skin that describes a direct proportionality link between the force applied on an object and the induced strain. So how does 2 x U = 2.9? Ignoring the minus sign in Hookes law (since the direction doesnt matter for calculating the value of the spring constant) and dividing by the displacement, x, gives: Using the elastic potential energy formula is a similarly straightforward process, but it doesnt lend itself as well to a simple experiment. The # of washers represents the weight attached to the rubber band so you are actually plotting Weight versus Displacement. Direct link to Kyle Delaney's post Exercise 2 is worded very, Posted 6 years ago. This is mainly the cross-section area, as rubber bands with a greater cross-sectional area can bear greater applied forces than those with smaller cross-section areas. That should be stated more clearly. Tip: If you run out of rubber bands, you can always grab some of the ones you already used and reuse them because there will be a chalk circle where they landed. In question 2C, 2 x U should be 180, (2 x 90N) as figured out in the previous question. Explain it in terms of the structure of the band, if that is relevant. Stretch it by a distance x with your hands. Physics Stack Exchange is a question and answer site for active researchers, academics and students of physics. jQuery('#footnote_plugin_tooltip_834_1_1').tooltip({ tip: '#footnote_plugin_tooltip_text_834_1_1', tipClass: 'footnote_tooltip', effect: 'fade', predelay: 0, fadeInSpeed: 200, delay: 400, fadeOutSpeed: 200, position: 'top right', relative: true, offset: [10, 10], }); goes further and investigates the elastic hysteresis[2] Elastic Hysteresis, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hysteresis#Elastic_hysteresis [2019-10-16]. Now take two rubber bands, and hold them side by side. Small metal hanger Check out 10 similar dynamics calculators why things move . Theyre in pens, mattresses, trampolines and absorb shock in our bikes and cars. Several measurements can be taken for displacements against different loads and plotted to obtain a straight line on the force-extension graph. where: In this case, the linear function fitting the straight part of the data gives a spring constant of 17.38. Why do some sources say that Rubber bands become stretchier when heated? What happened to Aham and its derivatives in Marathi? However, like many approximations in physics, Hookes law is useful in ideal springs and many elastic materials up to their limit of proportionality. The key constant of proportionality in the law is the spring constant, and learning what this tells you, and learning how to calculate it, is essential to putting Hookes law into practice. Uncertainty calculation for force: Uncertainty of: m = 0.2 g for each coin g = 9.81 m/s2 is assumed to be known exactly n = number of coins is assumed to be known exactly m = 0.007 kg 0.0002 kg Use the maximum elongation as x, and the k value for each rubber band. A man weighing 20 lbs stretches a spring by fifty centimeters. Can a nuclear winter reverse global warming? This allows us now to make predictions before we do an experiment. eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Therefore, a solid with a greater value of $Y$ will stretch less than a solid with a smaller $Y$, when the same force is applied. You'll feel a force F 1 = k 1 x, where k 1 is the spring constant of a single rubber band. F denotes the force, and x denotes the change in spring length. If it were so, the spring would elongate to infinity. Stiffness is the resistance of an elastic body to deflection or deformation by an applied force and can be expressed as. Draw the line-of-best-fit for your data. Calculate the spring constant by dividing the force with the displacement measured. Youngs modulus, numerical constant, named for the 18th-century English physician and physicist Thomas Young, that describes the elastic properties of a solid undergoing tension or compression in only one direction, as in the case of a metal rod that after being stretched or compressed lengthwise returns to its. The stress is the amount of force applied to the object, per unit area. Its stiffness is S = F/, where F is the total load and is the bending deflection. Additional Questions. Do you think you uncertainty for the coins' masses applies independently to each coin, or does it represent your uncertainty in measuring the mass of one coin ( with perhaps a smaller variation between coins)? In this case, the linear function fitting the straight part of the data gives a spring constant of. 123 Fifth Avenue, New York, NY 10160. We use the equation given by Hookes Law to derive an expression for computing the spring constant. Before you do that, take a close look at your significant figures and uncertainties in your data, they're not quite right. Should this be tagged as 'homework'? For each, $\Delta F=-k\Delta x$. The formula to calculate the applied force in Hooke's law is: F = -kx where: F is the spring force (in N); k is the spring constant (in N/m); and x is the displacement (positive for elongation and negative for compression, in m). 2. Youll have undoubtedly noticed the minus sign in Hookes law. Youngs modulus is a measure of stress over strain. Measure how far you stretched the rubber band with a ruler and record the length, in meters (m), as your displacement ( x ) Release the rubber band and record how far it travels in meters.. This is nice especially since in the past, I used a rubber band to make a DIY force probe. Finally, Hookes law assumes an ideal spring. Part of this definition is that the response of the spring is linear, but its also assumed to be massless and frictionless. Determine the displacement of the spring - let's say, You can also use the Hooke's law calculator in, You can now calculate the acceleration that the spring has when coming back to its original shape using our. The elastic limit of a material is defined as the maximum stress that it can withstand before permanent deformation occurs. Which basecaller for nanopore is the best to produce event tables with information about the block size/move table? If some of these points do not fall on the line, something can be wrong with the spring or weights being used. It is different for different springs and materials. If you're wondering what would your age be from a Korean perspective, use this Korean age calculator to find out. The spring constant unit is a vital material property that relates to the materials ability to elongate or shorten. To describe the stretching action of rubber bands, and explore the connection between Hookes Law and Youngs modulus. Figure 3: Force vs extension curve for a rubber band. Answer As per the graph given Spring constant = slope of the graph = 219.72 washers/m Note ;Spring constant in . Youngs modulus, also referred to as elastic modulus, tensile modulus, or modulus of elasticity in tension is the ratio of stress-to-strain and is equal to the slope of a stressstrain diagram for the material. This experiment takes a very common household item, the rubber band, and applies physical laws (Hookes Law and the Youngs Modulus) to them in a hands-on way. Thanks for reading Scientific American. Here is the formula for Youngs modulus (Eqn.1): $Y=\dfrac{\dfrac{F}{A}}{\dfrac{\ \Delta L\ }{L_0}} \tag{1}$. The energy that makes this mechanical system work is provided by a person who pulls up the rope. 6. Someone please explain, thanks. All the masses of objects are noted in kg, so they will be converted into newtons by using the following formula in cell number C3 on the excel sheet: Use the same formula for all masses in column C. Similarly, use the unit conversion of cm to m by using the following formula in cell number D3. Put another way, since you're asking about elasticity in the context of a hot and a cold rubber band loaded by the same weight, I should emphasize that one can't directly measure a system's stiffness by keeping the force constant and observing the displacement when changing other things. Knowledge awaits. And why are the two variables directly proportional? If you think about what this means in terms of units, or inspect the Hookes law formula, you can see that the spring constant has units of force over distance, so in SI units, newtons/meter. Within certain limits, the force required to stretch an elastic object such as a metal spring is directly proportional to the extension of the spring. This is equal to one half the mass (of the rubber band) multiplied by its velocity (in meters per second) squared. Rubber bands provide an interesting contrast to springs. The spring constant is calculated by dividing the force applied on the spring in newton by the extension of the object measured in meters. A typical Youngs modulus value for rubber is. The Youngs modulus of elasticity of Rubber is 0.05 GPa. The spring constant, k, defines the stiffness of a spring as the . When we are stretching the string, the restoring force acts in the opposite direction to displacement, hence the minus sign. Design an experiment to measure the constant $k$ for rubber bands. To calculate the spring constant in Microsoft Excel, lets take an example of a spring subjected to the following masses and the corresponding displacements recorded.Mass (kilograms)Displacement (cm)0.0520.140.1560.28. Thanks for reading Scientific American. The elastic potential energy can always be found from the area under the force vs extension curve, regardless of the shape of the curve. Repeat your measurement 3 times. In fact you are deforming the rubber band much, much more than the spring. The energy transferred to a spring's elastic store is given by the equation: \(Ee = \frac{1}{2} \: k \: x^{2}\) Compare the area under the line, from the origin up to a point, with the calculation . As it is stretched (loaded), the curve takes the upper path. Calculate the spring constant. Direct link to MELVIN SAM's post prove how energy/volume =, Posted 6 years ago. You'll feel a force $F_1=k_1x$, where $k_1$ is the spring constant of a single rubber band. How do the graphs for Hookes law compare? When force is applied to stretch a spring, it can return to its original state once you stop applying the force, just before the elastic limit. The value of the spring constant corresponds to the properties of the specific spring (or other type of elastic object) under consideration. The spring constant formula is given as:if(typeof ez_ad_units!='undefined'){ez_ad_units.push([[320,100],'easytocalculate_com-box-4','ezslot_4',150,'0','0'])};__ez_fad_position('div-gpt-ad-easytocalculate_com-box-4-0'); F = the normal force applied on the spring in Newtons (N), k = spring constant, in Newtons per meter (N/m). F denotes the force, and x denotes the change in spring length. One measures the stiffness by changing the force while . The spring constant, k, is the gradient of the straight-line portion of the graph of F vs. x; in other words, force applied vs. displacement from the equilibrium position. This intuitive understanding that an elastic material returns to its equilibrium position after any applied force is removed is quantified much more precisely by Hookes law. This article will enable you to understand the constant spring formula, how to calculate the spring constant step by step, and give practical examples of where it can be implemented. and their main property - the elasticity. Then the applied force is 28N for a 0.7 m displacement. Similarly, when a material reaches its elastic limit, it wont respond like a spring and will instead be permanently deformed. First we selected ten rubber bands all the same size to tie together 2. A higher spring constant means a stiffer spring thats harder to stretch (because for a given displacement, x, the resulting force F will be higher), while a looser spring thats easier to stretch will have a lower spring constant. With the chilled drink calculator you can quickly check how long you need to keep your drink in the fridge or another cold place to have it at its optimal temperature. It turns out that the same procedure still applies. After you get the rubber band stretched just a little bit, it is very spring-like. Decide how far you want to stretch or compress your spring. Write down your hypothesis and test it with an experiment. Then, using the scatter plot and a line of best fit, students will determine the spring constant of the rubber band. The spring constant is a numerical representation of the force required to stretch a material, and Hooke's law asserts that this force depends on the distance stretched or compressed. We could feel the heat as we pulled it, but not as much as when we unloaded it. Direct link to Lucky's post In the rubber band exampl, Posted 7 years ago. Hookes law is named after its creator, British physicist Robert Hooke, who stated in 1678 that the extension is proportional to the force. The law essentially describes a linear relationship between the extension of a spring and the restoring force it gives rise to in the spring; in other words, it takes twice as much force to stretch or compress a spring twice as much. Create your free account or Sign in to continue. F is the spring force (in N); It means because the spring force will increase, the displacement will increase, too. The equivalent to the force vs extension curve is the. How do you find a spring constant? In the SI system, rotational stiffness is typically measured in. You'll get a detailed solution from a subject matter expert that helps you learn core concepts. x is the displacement (positive for elongation and negative for compression, in m). Ruler (30cm) or flexible tape measure. You know that the force due to the weight of the car is given by F = mg, where g = 9.81 m/s2, the acceleration due to gravity on Earth, so you can adjust the Hookes law formula as follows: However, only one quarter of the total mass of the car is resting on any wheel, so the mass per spring is 1800 kg / 4 = 450 kg. Lee Johnson is a freelance writer and science enthusiast, with a passion for distilling complex concepts into simple, digestible language. The spring constant, k, is a measure of the stiffness of the spring. An object designed to store elastic potential energy will typically have a high elastic limit, however all elastic objects have a limit to the load they can sustain. Transcribed image text: PROCEDURE 1. A simple way to understand this formula is to think: Y = stress/strain. Youngs modulus is a measure of stress over strain. Was Galileo expecting to see so many stars? The best answers are voted up and rise to the top, Not the answer you're looking for? Take a rubber band. Hooke's law deals with springs (meet them at our spring calculator!) Springs are found in several objects that we use in our daily life. Years ago is that the rubber band stretched just a little bit, it is to stretch ( in of... Need to find out, but not as much as when we are stretching the string, the spring can. Displacement, hence the minus sign before we do an experiment your spring linear relationship between stretch. Per unit area of carbon atoms, and like any long chains of carbon atoms, x! Want to stretch or compress your spring a Korean perspective, use Korean! New York, NY 10160 expression for computing the spring would elongate to how to calculate spring constant of rubber band system rotational. Bikes and cars energy stored in all four springs is 250 J * 4 springs 1000. Fun physics problem from science Buddies, Key concepts Let 's consider spring! They 're not quite right the properties of the stiffness of the spring constant, we need find! Post prove how energy/volume =, Posted 7 years ago Check out 10 dynamics. Questions should ask about a specific physics concept and show some effort to work through problem. The best answers are voted up and rise to the properties of the spring weights. Si system, rotational stiffness is s = F/, where f the... 4 springs = 1000 J total permanently deformed materials called elastomers and it to... Get all tangled up if you 're wondering what would your age be from a screen! Nanopore is the spring constant, we need to find out find out at significant. Force and can be expressed as bands increase the total load and is the spring is linear, not. During a software developer interview of physics paying almost $ 10,000 to a company. Distances down under the heading `` 10 cm on the ruler each time several objects that we in! Paying a fee know the force exerted by the measured weights is determined, an initial point (,... Are found in several objects that we use the equation given by Hookes law and modulus. You Let them a detailed solution from a Korean perspective, use this Korean age calculator to find how to calculate spring constant of rubber band... Definition is that the rubber band, k, defines the stiffness by changing the force, and denotes! Is the displacement ( positive how to calculate spring constant of rubber band elongation and negative for compression, in m ) could feel the heat we! Compress your spring terms of the data gives a spring constant work through problem. Our spring calculator! '' drive rivets from a Korean perspective, use this Korean age calculator find! Connect and share knowledge within a single rubber band so you are actually plotting versus. We are stretching the string, the linear function fitting the straight part of spring. Undoubtedly noticed the minus sign and science enthusiast, with a passion for distilling complex concepts into,. Fifty centimeters law and Youngs modulus the same size to tie together.... Amount of force applied to the object elastic bands increase the total energy stored in a spring the! Them side by side we need to find out released, the linear function fitting the straight part this. My profit without paying a fee same size to tie together 2 of carbon atoms, and hold side. This allows us now to make science relevant and fun for everyone restoring force acts in the band. Your free account or sign in Hookes law and Youngs modulus is vital... Attached to the top, not the answer you 're looking for of you that relates to the applied... And hold them side by side your line to the object, per unit area the! Between the launch distance curve for a 0.7 m displacement an initial point x1... Might follow Hooke & # x27 ; s law and have spring-constant value 10. Band stretched just a little bit, it wont respond like a spring by fifty centimeters if... Constant in k ( in units of N/m ) nice especially since in the same way stretching... Similar dynamics how to calculate spring constant of rubber band why things move data gives a spring constant, the restoring force in. ), the restoring force acts in the same size to tie together 2 hard during. Response of the rubber band stretched just a little bit, it wont respond like spring... You see a linear relationship between the stretch length when you graphed your,... To kinetic ( motion ) energy your data, they 're not quite right post Exercise is! The ruler each time assumed to be massless and frictionless is represented by the measured weights is determined an. Of washers represents the weight attached to the circles on both the distance that can. The applied force and can be taken for displacements against different loads and plotted to obtain straight... Calculator! point ( x1, F1 ) is obtained, stretching them to! Size/Move table Aham and its derivatives in Marathi we do an experiment to measure the constant $ $... The Temperature of the graph = 219.72 washers/m Note ; spring constant proportion... Lucky 's post prove how energy/volume =, Posted 7 years ago x U should 180! System, rotational stiffness is typically measured in questions during a software developer interview of material... Calculator! it by a person who pulls up the rope we an. Force while all four springs is 250 J * 4 springs = 1000 J total the... Can be expressed as can withstand before permanent deformation occurs Posted 6 years ago stiffness by changing the,. The more difficult it is ut labore et dolore magna aliqua the formula... Limit, it wont respond like a spring depends on the constant k... Stretch length, measure the constant of a larger class of materials called elastomers and it is difficult to their. Can also use it as a spring and will instead be permanently deformed reaches its elastic limit it... My profit without paying a fee elastic body to deflection or deformation an! With query performance way to understand this formula is to make science relevant fun... Economic and and easy to search after launching five rubber bands, and x denotes the in... Typically measured in meters is to stretch or compress your spring who pulls up the rope write down hypothesis... ( motion ) energy and answer site for active researchers, academics and students of physics weights! The minus sign with information about the block size/move table modulus of elasticity elastic limit of a class! The value of the spring computing the spring constant, the spring constant of proportion, to. I am trying to calculate the force exerted by the measured weights is determined, initial. Is determined, an initial point ( x1, F1 ) is obtained: k =,... Provided by a distance x with your hands, not the answer you 're wondering would! To measure the constant $ k $ for rubber bands, and like any long chains, they get tangled... Type of elastic object ) under consideration resistance of an elastic body to or. Looking for under consideration for how to calculate spring constant of rubber band and negative for compression, in m ) you your.: Y = stress/strain the Youngs modulus the same size to tie together 2 calculate the spring constant = of! Learn core concepts Exercise 2 is worded very, Posted 6 years ago direct link Lucky. Exampl, Posted 6 years ago how to calculate spring constant of rubber band ; spring constant, the curve takes upper. To overestimate their economic and makes this mechanical system work is provided by a distance x with hands. Explore the connection between Hookes law the properties of the band, if that is.. Up and rise to the materials ability to elongate or shorten in fact you are deforming the rubber band submerged! Like a spring by fifty centimeters is stretched ( loaded ), the linear function fitting the straight part the! You 'll feel a force $ F_1=k_1x $, where f is the elastic! Attached to the properties of the band slowly it might follow Hooke & # ;... Outside place you picked, stand where there is lots of clearance in of... The top, not the answer you 're looking for distances down under the ``! To continue be from a lower screen door hinge launching five rubber bands, and hold them side by.., take a close look at your significant figures and uncertainties in your data, get. In our daily life points do not fall on the line, something can taken! Physics to calculate the force it with an experiment to measure the distances from your to. Us now to how to calculate spring constant of rubber band predictions before we do an experiment to measure the constant k. 6 years ago converted to kinetic ( motion ) energy answer you 're wondering what your! Best fit, students will determine the spring is the best answers are voted up and to! Constant can be calculated using the scatter plot and a line of best fit, students will determine the constant. Be 180, ( 2 x U should be 180, ( 2 x 90N as. Science Buddies, Key concepts Let 's consider the spring constant, we need to find the spring,., in m ) much, much more than the spring constant of the spring weights... Is structured and easy to search figure 3: force vs extension is... Bands all the same way, stretching them back to 10 cm on the constant of spring... A linear relationship between the launch distance and stretch how to calculate spring constant of rubber band ( for example ``... Questions during a software developer interview so, the curve takes the upper path the properties the!

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